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I agree wholeheartedly that NOW is the time for change ... congratulations on coming up with the most thoughtful and innovative idea in real estate practice that I have seen since the industry rolled out buyer agency.
Let's DO it!!!
Thanks Frances for being at REBarCamp in SF and making me feel like I was not a lone voice howling at the moon.
How do you implement it? The COE has implications beyond the merely ethical. You can end up in front of local and State Associations for alleged violations.
How would this apply to Realtors who are, themselves, struggling? It's not always being good and moral even with the loftiest intentions.
One other thing: since a very large majority of the public has no clue that Realtors even have a COE let alone what it might say and a very large slice of the Realtor population has never read the COE or knows what it says, how does putting something like this in the COE do any good?
You can't legislate good works. Just curious.
anyone who has helped another human being in need, without compensation,
just knew (felt?) it to be the right thing to do. And when we did so, we
felt uplifted too. Struggling realtors? Yes.. that is why I added "who are
able" to the language.
Agree the public does not know about the COE-- perhaps there is a way to let
them know. If they knew, would they ask a Realtor for help? Perhaps.
What good will it do? I don't know but would pray more good than harm.
I totally agree with you on this. There are no two ways about this and more need to perform. I'm not only on several committees for my associations, but am involved in my community as well. People need to get away from the me-ness of it all & need to look at themselves and their lives. I so strongly believe in giving back and doing so without looking for something in return.
It's not always easy being good and moral...
you.
There are many part time agents who only do 1 deal a year. Is it fair to make someone who is struggling do deal for free. I like the idea of helping people, I am not sure I like the idea forcing people to help others. I made a promise to myself to donate to charity in ever increasing amounts every year. I believe in giving back to society. But should the NAR decide how I give back?
I would love to see some kind of incentive to do this, i am not sure I like the idea of requiring it.
"how", you do. There are no pro bono police.
the buttons.
Lena
Thanks so much for bringing this issue into full view. I think many Realtors are already doing lots of pro bono work helping homeowners through these tough times--without pay. We do it because we know what to do--and it just feels good to DO SOMETHING. We can't change the credit markets and economic collapses, but we can reach out and do good with our knowledge and connections--and can perhaps help families stay in their homes.
To incorporate this concept into the NAR Code of Ethics would be a brilliant move--and might become a national campaign for our entire profession.
How can I help?
the word, especially to those movers and shakers I know you know.
;-)
voluntary*. It's not policed in the legal profession, which does have a pro
bono section in its Code of Professional Responsibility. But the point is
NAR will acknowledge that pro bono public service should be a component of
the profession, setting Realtors apart.
feel is in need of help or an organization doing charitable work. I think
one ought not think in terms of being forced to do public service-- if you
don't feel it's worth it, don't do it.
Not sure I understand what would be the penalty for not doing voluntary pro
bono work. I don't suppose it would be like impoundment of your assets and
jail for not paying your taxes. Heck, that wouldn't be nice. For example, I
don't know of any lawyers being forced to do pro bono work , though some
should be.
How would you choose who to do your pro bono work for? Someone who made a bad decision and bought more house than they could afford? Someone who, by some [to be determined] criteria, was the victim of predatory lending? The elderly who may be downsizing into a nursing home? Do you check financial assets to determine the validity of the need (to avoid being taken advantage of by "system gamers")?
Or do you just toss a coin, choose some homeowner (seller) at random and tell them, "You just won the lottery! I'm going to sell your house (i.e., marketing, etc.) with no expectation of commission. AND I'll pay the co-op commission from my pocket!" regardless of their financial condition (which I infer is not the thrust of your cause based on the video clip).
This is a wonderful idea. I'm just not sure embedding it into the COE - voluntary or not - will make a difference. This is the type of thing which comes from the heart not from some sense of professional duty.
I've actually heard variations of this idea and I can never get my arms around the logistics of it. Selling real estate is not like paying for meals for an NPR fund drive or a church car wash or even representing a client when I don't have to share a fee. In most of the real estate transactions, I'm involved with there is always the co-op agent.
My. $.02
However, I'm struggling with the words "professional responsibility." That does sound like a mandate to me. I'm a broker with 60 agents, and I see my agents (many struggling too) giving time and money to Rotary, to Children's Hospital and to their clients when need be. Would a mandate like this in the COE change what's in someone's heart? It reminds me of the debate when I was in graduate school about ethics in general. The consensus was that by the time someone is in grad school, they either have ethics or they don't.
Finally, how do we manage Errors and Omissions insurance? If the agent and brokerage are liable for potential damages or repayment of commissions, could we face a court opinion that says while no commission was actually earned, there are still damages owed?
"professional responsibility" were taken from the legal professional code.
I think they can be read to be mandatory but I know of no case where a
lawyer was charged with violation of the code of professional responsibility
for not performing pro bono work. If the powers that be were to impose any
kind of penalty, it would defeat the purpose, for, as you say, you either
have the heart or you don't (I'd venture a guess an overwhelming majority
have it). You can't legislate public service and charity but you can
establish it as a guiding principle of the profession. E&O insurance would
still cover individuals who did pro bono work. IMO, if no commission was
earned, none can be recovered.
While it is necessary to consider the bad/worst case scenarios, and the need
to craft language to suit the lawyers, I prefer to consider the wondrous
possibilities.
Legislating kindness is not in the cards.
The concept is a new low and from a lefty Canadian perspective I hear a little socialism happening here. Not that it's a bad thing. We should all hold hands more often. :>)
However, In the head long rush to be "do gooders" there may be an unwinding of the cause.
In support of the concept my hand is up with the proviso that those who desire to provide their services pro-bono or provide any other charitable work can and should do so at their discretion without legislative guidance. As I understand it, there is nothing stopping anybody from selling a house for free. What cannot be assumed is that other parties to a transaction must be willing and not be forced to do the same by decree.
To you my friend, and to the other kind and giving individuals promoting this I say, legislating this mandate is to invite chaos. Be careful of the can you hope to open.
do not need legislative guidance. And none can be forced to public service
(and none have, as far as I know). If it would make folks feel more
comfortable and secure from pro bono police then add it to the Preamble-- I
don't know of the NAR policing "grave social responsibility", "patriotic
duty" or "honor" (all, arguably, terms for do-gooders contained therein)
I am curious if any broker has thought out a broker level Pro Bono plan. Perhaps some qualifications or parameters?
Thanks for continuing to beat this drum!
Okay, truly not here to pee in your cornflakes..., wait for it... wait for it... BUT,
>Voluntary Pro Bono Public Service
Every Realtor who is able has a professional responsibility to provide real estate related services, without compensation, to those unable to pay or of limited means. Every Realtor should aspire to render pro bono service on at least one (1) real estate transaction per year.
If we must be told be charitable, then, geez louise, god help us. ... It sounds a bit disingenuous. First thing we do, let's kill all the Realtors, (then we can get to the lawyers).
Yes, let's do nice things for people!
No, let's not make public proclamations about it.
Then again, maybe it's just me... :-)
"No, let's not make public proclamations about it.'
Some 18th Century fellas in powdered wigs thought certain "truths to be
self-evident" but wrote them down in a little public declaration. Many are
glad they did.
Yep, it's you :)
self-evident" but wrote them down in a little public declaration. Many are
glad they did.
Um, yes, ::hand raised:: So very happy they did!
But I'm not inclined to equate the NAR with some 18th Century fellas in powdered wigs who changed history... So,
>Yep, it's you :)
It usually is, and whaddya know- I'm perfectly okay with that! :-D
Maybe changing history comes in different ways.
Thanks for being you.
Okay Joe, fair enough. I'm looking at this from a completely different place, and still find the whole thing disingenuous but that really is me, and I get that.
>Maybe changing history comes in different ways.
Joe, if we never agree on anything else, on that we are eyeball to eyeball! :-)
Thanks for seeding this discussion; and Bill Lubin and others, thank you for highlighting the wide range of charitable causes real estate brokerages and agents are already championing.
Is anyone doing anything for World AIDS Day (12/1/08), or open to a voluntary industry-wide proposal? Does anyone remember when Pastor Rick Warren's asked this question during the presidential debates?
"...there are 148 million orphans worldwide, would you commit to a plan for them, as Bush did for AIDS?"
Realtors alone cannot implement an emergency plan for AIDS orphans, but they can INVITE MILLIONS OF CLIENTS to make donations to existing non-profit organizations through an annual, friendly fund raising campaign using profits or savings from real estate transactions online.
Think of it as a real estate version of (Product)RED.
If you are interested, please take 10 minutes to flip through this slide show:
ASAP: AIDS Shelter Alliance Partners
http://tinyurl.com/563q6l
If you're prepared to do something quickly before World AIDS Day, would you be interested in participating in some kind of visibility campaign at the Harvard / Yale Game this year to let 40,000+ alumni know they can save money on real estate transactions while savings lives?
If you are interested in adapting this idea for your company or local market during 2009, please watch the video and scan
the proposed annual, friendly fund raising competition on this wiki. DRAFT Pledge Challenge forms for alumni or city-wide fund raising campaigns can be downloaded from the site:
http://realestatecafe.pbwiki.com/SaveASAP
One way to expand ASAP's impact, or any other charitable campaign, is to partner with existing funding sources. For example, David Rockefeller recently donated $70 million to Harvard to support international learning experiences. Part of that was set aside to seed new ideas through the President's Innovation Fund for International Experience. Imagine the fund raising potential of the proposed ASAP campaign if every donation made by a home buyer or seller was matched by the Innovation Fund to subsidize student volunteers working with AIDS orphans.
That's just one idea. Add your dream project, or your favorite cause or charitable campaign to this fledgling social network for
ePhilanthropy and Cause Marketing in Real Estate:
http://ChangeAgents.ning.com
Thank you for considering this idea starter, and please continue to share your own.
Bill Wendel
617-661-4046
http://www.worldteach.org/programs/kenya_year/
Harvard Sports Marketing would like a written proposal by Monday or Tuesday. As stated above, the goal of the event vehicle is to let 40,000+ Harvard & Yale students and alumni know they can save money on real estate transactions while savings lives. At a minimum, real estate sponsors could have a banner on the ice cream truck and distribute literature. I can send a video proposal to anyone interested.
"how", you do. There are no pro bono police.
Is there any concern that the public (consumers) might have have an opinion as to "who are able" to do work for free? Other agents, the public or attorneys could be the pro bono police.
Don't get me wrong ~ I am all for agents doing charitable work if the choose. This is not something that needs to be a part of the Realtor Code of Ethics.
code. Folks will ask and, if a lawyer is able, he or she will take on the
case for free OR refer it to a firm that has a pro bono dept. (many firms
have them). I am unaware of any lawyer being disciplined, by anyone, for
NOT doing pro bono work. As I see it, real estate professionals already DO
IT, despite a code without it as a (fill in the blank) of the profession--
which is admirable and should be celebrated. Putting it in the code is one
way, IMO, to celebrate it. I do, however, respect your opinion not to
include it in the COE. That's what makes this country great-- freedom of
thought and opinion. Thanks, Jon for contributing your voice to the
discussion.,
Your continued coverage of cause marketing in real estate has been a Godsend. Hope readers and consumers turn this "open source" fund raising idea into a nationwide, voluntary coalition -- won't be long before there is a real estate version of (Product)RED!
Real Estate Cafe, Altos Research & Charitable Marketing
http://tinyurl.com/5luow7
Great job!
Just today...Julie and I held a 60 minute teleconference on this topic. You are so correct that this market is about being of service to others...
Here is the link to the teleconference:
http://timandjulieharris.com/2009/10/01/hreu-4t...
Hope this helps!
Tim
http://www.TimandJulieHarris.com....
Links backs etc?
In any way that we can..we would love to see your intention become the new way of thinking for our industry.
Tim
Please send me this post with enough alterations so that Google does tag it as DUP content....if you don't have time to do this...I can write and intro on our blog that leads to your post.
You tell me.
Tim
http://timandjulieharris.com/2009/10/02/hreu-re...
My suggestion is that we rewrite the Code Of Ethics entirely. In fact, I already have. Here it is. feel free to reprint and distribute:
Article 1
Do what is right.
Article 2
If you need a definition of Article 1, find a different industry.
Would you define Warren Buffett as professional? Prior to Bill Gates convincing him to donate much of his fortune to charity, Buffett was considered by many to be a stooge based on the amount of his charitable giving. Gates, on the other hand, has been sued and chastised as being ruthless in business, but he has given more than any man in history.
You are going about this wrong. You don't dictate or legislate character based behavior. You create opportunity for it to be exercised.
IMO, each profession ought to decide the parameters of its own ethical or moral character. If you think pro bono work, though noble and charitable, should not be an ethical principle for the real estate professional, by all means, leave it out. Perhaps I am naive to think real estate professionals are more akin to legal professionals than software makers in the heights to which their ethical principles should rise and be acknowledged in their respective Codes of Ethics.
[Re: Buffet and Gates, I am unfamiliar with their written Code of Ethics.]
Under your COE, Article 1, is it "right" to rebate a portion of your commission to the client? If it is right, is it right to rebate the whole thing? If so, then perhaps your simple COE has a pro bono provision contained in the word "right." I applaud it.
"You don't dictate or legislate character based behavior. You create opportunity for it to be exercised."
Exactly. If it is in the COE you have created the opportunity for it to be exercised.
[BTW, there is no pro bono police force to judge your charity, contemplated in my proposal. ]
[Perhaps I am naive to think real estate professionals are more akin to legal professionals than software makers in the heights to which their ethical principles should rise and be acknowledged in their respective Codes of Ethics.]
The problem with this type of communication is that I can't see if you wrote that with a straight face.
If one needs proof that pro bono work has nothing to do with ethics, morals and character, you only need to look at the number of attorneys fronting loan mod companies that have ripped off 1000s of desperate homeowners.
[BTW, there is no pro bono police force to judge your charity, contemplated in my proposal. ]
Then, with apologies to Captain Barbossa, in your opinion, "the code is more of what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules".
However, we know that not to be true. We have boards and mls entities suing agents and policing and shutting down their online businesses, using the "violating the NAR COE" as the authority to do so.
[If it is in the COE you have created the opportunity for it to be exercised.]
No. The Code does nothing to create opportunity. More importantly, it does nothing to facilitate it once the opportunity has presented itself. As one mentioned earlier, we have E & O concerns. We also have large brokers where fee upon fee has been added to the transaction, by the broker, to be passed to the buyer or seller. Buffett's Pru Cal in SoCal is an example. I believe there was a lawsuit in Georgia over this as well.
It took a court a to force a brokerage to stop this. Was not that type of behavior (charging a fee for doing nothing extra) already covered by the Code? The Code cant keep these guys from overcharging, yet you think it will do something in the opposite direction - working for free (in the eyes of the broker)?
If you want to change perception, you dont make it forced behavior from the top down. You have the industry players (not NAR), create the mechanism to facilitate it. You need the big brokers to be willing to waive the commission (remember, its paid to the broker, not the agent).
Take it a step further and meld your industry pro bono work with mine. Provide me a list of attorneys by state who are willing to represent homeowners pro bono and we'll match them up with brokers and their agents who want to handle the real estate part pro bono.
I have donated commissions (less the broker split and fees), painted houses, built rooms, etc for many clients over the years. I didnt need an industry code to do so. What would help is for the industry to make it easier for me to do so again.
The biggest problem with this debate is that to oppose it based on it being a part of the COE is that the response is like being asked "Are you still beating your wife"?
The point is that there doesn't need to be a provision to do something good for another. Many people do and many people dont. It happens every day in this business. Those that live this way tend not to advertise it.
I would prefer to see you leverage the likes of Sherry Chris. Her comment, "I think it runs deeper than an addition to the Code of Ethics, it begins with developing core business values at the individual agent and broker level.", is the key.
Adding it to the Code is merely symbolic.
I take that as a yes to my questions re: full rebate under your "do right" COE.
So, if under your COE, a rebate of all your commission, when and where appropriate, is "doing right" (and also "doing no harm"), that appears to be noble and charitable. It appears to be pro bono. Hence, we seem to be in agreement on "doing right" being ethical and capable of including pro bono acts.
Where we seem to disagree is you prefer a COE that says "do what's right" and not pro bono because it will make pro bono forced behavior (hmm..doing right sounds forced too). I think if it is forced, there is no debate as I am against forced pro bono (and forced "do what's right" under your code).
"Adding it to the Code is merely symbolic."
Hmm.. I can live with that. Can you?
You and I see this as 'more like guidelines'. NAR does not. My objection is leaving anything subjective up to NAR.
By my definition of ethical behavior, a vast number of real estate contracts written in CA are unethical, clearly violating the fiduciary duty owed to the buyer. The primary example of this is where the buyer's agent insists on having the buyer remove their contingencies, instead of waiting for the seller to issue a notice to perform (most sellers dont as they are afraid of losing the buyer).
This 'sales tactic' is pushed by brokers and even NAR endorsed trainers.
I guess if I really examine this issue, I see the COE as utterly useless as a tool to improve public perception. It didn't do anything to prevent the abuses of many who supposedly adhere to the code simply because they write a check to NAR every year.
The reason I have a problem with the symbolic issue here is that I believe that many will stop there, content with the token gesture they can point to and hide behind.
I would prefer a separate group that advocates this from the broker level. One where the ability for an agent to do this facilitated. Where the broker is a stakeholder in the act. Waiving the split, absorbing or splitting the E&O premium, etc.
NAR cant change the perception of the industry with a token gesture. The industry has to do it on their own with real actions, apart from NAR.
I believe it does, to real estate agents and brokers who take the profession seriously. If they don't take it seriously, I say we enforce your COE Article 2: Find a different industry.
Fear of the pro bono police is not reason enough to convince me to exclude what we agree is "doing what's right, when and where appropriate".
Charity police by NAR? That's just plain laughable. They will instead celebrate the instances where pro bono service changed lives, increased business and raised respect for the industry. Makes more sense than arresting non-compliers.
"Positive thinking will let you do everything better than negative thinking will." ZIg Ziglar
I would participate in a no fee deal per year, but as I said it would be from my heart, not an effort to make myself stand out. What are your thoughts?
Perhaps showing the charitable work real estate professionals are doing will change the public perception of the profession. Perhaps not-- but I'd rather think positively that it will. It may also encourage others to be creatively charitable. Let's try it and see.
Charity or cause marketing does work. You don't have to announce it if you don't care to-- those who are the beneficiaries of your good work will spread the word, as will witnesses.
BTW, I appreciate your good works. You don't have to tell anyone; I will. Why? Because good works, and those that do it, should be celebrated. Just my opinion.
BTW, I love your idea about putting pro bono brokers and attorneys together. Maybe we can do it here: http://goodsamrealestate.com/